Ignition trouble. Coil and grounding issue?

[sinannasirli]

Hello Everyone!

I am restoring the ignition of the BMW R26

The ignition coil and capacitor is bought new from Ulis , but when we screw it down something causes the ignition coil to short-out itself.. 
So there is no ignition. Is the isolation of the coil is maybe not done properly? I believe somehow the interior of the hole is touching the bolt and causing the short-out?

Do the coil need to be grounded trough that two bolts anyway?  It does create spark when not grounded...

Can you please watch the video?

---------------------
Hallo!

Ich Arbeit jet an der  Zündung des BMW R26 wieder

Die Zündspule und der Kondensator werden von Ulis neu gekauft, aber wenn ich die Spule festschraube, verursacht die Zündspule einen Kurzschluss und deswegen gibt keine Zündung.

Ist die Isolation der Spule vielleicht nicht richtig gemacht? Ich glaube, dass irgendwie das Innere des Lochs der Masse berührt und verursacht den Kurzschluss?

Muss die Spule durch diese beiden Schrauben trotzdem geerdet werden? Da gibts Zündung, auch wenn sie nicht geerdet ist ...

Können Sie sich bitte das Video ansehen?



Vielen Dank für eure Hilfe!

mfg

Sinan

[sinannasirli]

[OldsCool!]

Hi Sinan,

is there any modification on the ignition coil holder? One side of the holder needs to be non-magnetic material (usually brass), otherwise the magnetic field is significantly weakened by a loop through the housing. So it might not be a direct electrical issue, but a magnetical. Also I would not judge by the spark on the breaker, but only on a spark plug connected to the ignition coil.

To verify your theory you could just measure the resistance between coil and housing with a multimeter gauge.

BR

Steffen

[rolf]

Why is the wire 15 (of the ignition coil) welded? there is normally connected with the screw 15/54 ......the forth (lowest) screw of the line of 4 Screws.
It looks if it is welded to the coil holder?

[sinannasirli]

THank you Stefan,

I haven't noticed that and I can only reply to you tonight, but I have looked to a picture that I have and it looks like brass..

If I screw all the way down ( where you see the continuity circuit beeping), there is no spark anywhere,  no spark at the ignition breaker, or on the spark.

Please see the second picture ( you cannot see the whole setup but at least a portion), I have applied 6 volts to the 15, and put a wire (green) to spark plug terminal , which creates a good spark when I touch the tip near the earth...
And no spark again if screwed all the way down..  I cannot say it the voltage is enough but definitely there is a spark!

It looks to me like a grounding issue but I cannot get my head around

Thank you for your message

Hi Sinan,

is there any modification on the ignition coil holder? One side of the holder needs to be non-magnetic material (usually brass), otherwise the magnetic field is significantly weakened by a loop through the housing. So it might not be a direct electrical issue, but a magnetical. Also I would not judge by the spark on the breaker, but only on a spark plug connected to the ignition coil.

To verify your theory you could just measure the resistance between coil and housing with a multimeter gauge.

BR

Steffen

[mekgyver]

Hi Sinan,
if there is a contact between the coil outside to the lower red cable, there is something wrong. There is no issue between turning the screw an electrical funktion.

But why is no ignition-cable mounted at the terminal in the middle of the ign-coil ?
No ign-cable, no sparkplug-connector, no sparkplug. Note : the connector needs a groundcable.

Due to your testmethod showed on YT, you have the risk of damaging your ign-system, because the spark-voltage is much higher than normally use with spark-plug.

regards, mek 

oh, new photos are showing new probs :
1. yellow-cable at 61 ... what connection ?
2. your soldering is bad ... use a bigger soldering-iron, 40W at minimum
3. the coal-contacts has to be crossed (if the generator inside is original)

4. the points does not well fit ... use the brand : Noris
5. later use a yellow-cable for DF, its easier to find and declare probs, only for convention-(rules)

mek

[sinannasirli]

THe one that I took off was welded to terminal 15. So I did the same.. 
Also there was a bracket to weld a cable, so it made a sense...
But it is welded to terminal/screw 15, so it should not make much difference? Again the above picture that shows that it is welded to screw 15.

Why is the wire 15 (of the ignition coil) welded? there is normally connected with the screw 15/54 ......the forth (lowest) screw of the line of 4 Screws.
It looks if it is welded to the coil holder?

[OldsCool!]

I think your pictures resolve Rolfs concern. Looks ok to me. I would measure resistance between coil core and red wires to sort out any issue with a short cuircuit.

BR

Steffen

[sinannasirli]

Hi Mek!

There is no ignition cable because my ignition/spark plus cable has not arrived  ..  And the old one was too bad shape.. So I used a ordinary cable to test the spark AFTER I made the test in video..   On the test at the video there is no voltage.. Only a continuity test with multimeter!

On the second test with the wire ( you only see a portion of the wire still attached, please look to second picture I sent) I basically gave power to the circuit and simulate the ignition spark with a normal cable.. Willl this damage my ignition?? Only did a few sparks...


"if there is a contact between the coil outside of the lower red cable, there is something wrong. There is no issue between turning the screw an electrical funktion."

Can you please clarify what you mean the contact between outside of lower red cable? If you mean if the coil is actually touching a 15-cable that it is connected to the terminal(welded), I dont think this is happening..

THe metal part of the ignition coil. There is a slight insulation material like Shellac on it. What purpose do it serve? I dont think it is completely covered with this materials and there can be some blank spots that touch the holder. Is it important?

But why is no ignition-cable mounted at the terminal in the middle of the ign-coil ?
No ign-cable, no sparkplug-connector, no sparkplug. Note : the connector needs a groundcable.

Due to your testmethod showed on YT, you have the risk of damaging your ign-system, because the spark-voltage is much higher than normally use with spark-plug.

regards, mek 

[mekgyver]

pls see my changes at 13:30h,
i'm back later ...

[sinannasirli]

Hi Mek,
Great thank you for your reply...

Just to note, the charging and ignition circuit was working very fine  before I took all apart  (the reason of me asking them apart is to fix the ignition trouble that arose.. So I
have changed points , condenser and ignition coil... Now replies below..



oh, new photos are showing new probs :
1. yellow-cable at 61 ... what connection ?  --> This is coming from Field. Charging circuit was fine.. (that was there already, I didn't touch)

2. your soldering is bad ... use a bigger soldering-iron, 40W at minimum. -->  . Yes I know!! indeed the gun is even better than that but probably tip is gone..  I never could do soldering properly..
3. the coal-contacts has to be crossed (if the generator inside is original). --> I think you are right, I have thought it would not make much change and installed other way around..  Does it matter which coal is positive and which negative.. Is it because of the direction it rotates??  Meanwhile would  this have any effect on ignition?

4. the points does not well fit ... use the brand : Noris. --> It is actually Noris, but the case is not right. The hole at the points is larger and the pin that contact breaker was mounted was made thicker (or the hole at Noris was not wide enough.. I will put more nuts to make it sit right after I adjust the gap. Thank you..

5. later use a yellow-cable for DF, its easier to find and declare probs, only for convention-(rules) Thank you

mek

[sinannasirli]

One question..

Do the ignition coil needs to be grounded via the holder?  What is the purpose of the holder?

[mekgyver]

quick answer to #10 :
the coil itsself has no contact to ground.
For propper function (magnetic) it nessesary to mount the iron-core at its place.
Your original holders are fine , one iron, one brass, all in good condition.

[sinannasirli]

So, if I apply clear lacquer (nail polish??) to the iron portion of the coil allover, including the inside of the mounting hole, do you think this would cause any problems? Or would be irrelevant?

Because what I am thinking is, the coil somehow has a defected portion, where the windings touch the iron bar, and when I screw it down, it gets grounded trough the holder. Can this happen?  SO maybe re-covering the attachment portions with an isolation material would help?

[OldsCool!]

If there is a shortcut to the iron bar, I would replace the coil right away! How would you know if it is only a single wire touching the iron bar or several wires short-cut by the iron bar as well?

As said: Pick a multimeter and measure resistance between coil in/outputs (red wires) and the iron bar, so you see if there is an issue.

BR

Steffen

[sinannasirli]

integral ohmmeter readings(shows when i touch both tips together) is about 1,1 ohm,
sonplease deduct this from below values..

Resistance between two input outputs. is2,3 ohm
Resistance between one pole and spark plug pole :9,5 kohm (same for both)

But:
if i measure the pole vs interior part of iron bar(where there is no lacquer,please look at the picture) the resistance is only 1,2 ohm(shortcut?). if i screw down a lot this caused that part to touch the holder and short the coil out?

Thanks

[OldsCool!]

Well... so here we go! The coil is broken. Shortcut to iron bar. Go get a new one and its fine! Our member Hansdampf can refurbish it better than new, but don't know whether shipping makes sense for you.

BR

Steffen

[sinannasirli]

Well... so here we go! The coil is broken. Shortcut to iron bar. Go get a new one and its fine! Our member Hansdampf can refurbish it better than new, but don't know whether shipping makes sense for you.

BR

Steffen

This was a brand new coil boight from Ulis Motorrad..
Apparently wy old dirty looking coil was better than this..
Also did not want any locally winded coils to have a piece of mind!
Will contact them now for a replacement. Hope they honor it...
So this means another customs fees etc..

Thank you all..