BMW Einzylinder-Forum
TERMINE und FORUMSTECHNIK => International discussion forum in english language => Thema gestartet von: Garnet Grylls am 24 November 2005, 07:22:44
Good day to everyone.
My engine, transmission and swingarm are all back into the frame and I am close to running. ;D
I made a oil pump drive that I could turn with my drill to test my new 15mm R27 oil pump. I am getting much more oil out of the exhaust rocker arm than the intake. I decided to make two oil "gutters" as Thomas did on his R34/3. http://www.bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/index.php?topic=1079.msg14382#msg14382
I made one sample out of a tin can and it seems to work well, and have some proper material and design to make something better.
My question is: How much oil should I allow to flow onto the valves? With my drill at medium speed (matching maybe 3000 UPMs of engine speed) I get a steady drip drip drip. I feel that is enough to lube the rocker/valve without takeing oil away from the rest of the engine.
Is there a risk of too much oil in the top end?
Garnet
Hi Garnet,
you never can have "too much oil" at any area of the engine - except the combustion chamber maybe ;)
The question is how to find the right balance between the upper area (cylinder head) and the rest of the engine (crankshaft, camshaft chain and piston track in a few engines )
My hint goes in the direction in not to overdo the pressure reduction in the
head ( i know - there is not very much pressure at all)
BUT (trotzdem ;D ) the rocker axes are designed to have a very low axial
play / clearance thus performing like little nozzels in the area around the
supporting blocks.
My little gutter at the exhaust valve has a flow limiter also - realized by the very
small radial channel at the top washer - in order to keep some pressure for
the intake side.
Checking the flow with a drill is a good way to see what happens - i did some
years ago when i tuned my oil pump. And i was disappointed when i compared
the flow to the real running engine.
Many Greetings from Bavaria
Thomas
Hello Thomas
I suspect that my drill may be turning the oil pump faster than I think, but I cannot find my handheld tachometer. :(
Because I am putting more oil on the intake valve I also have a concern that some oil may get sucked into the combustion chamber as well.
I have to work all this weekend >:( (better than no job ;)) so I will get little done on this for a few days.
How is your project advancing?
Greetings
Garnet
Hello Garnet,
still calculating.....
I want to have my crankshaft balanced staticly AND dynamically - so i have
to to some maths in order to avoid the disassembly of my non-concentric
crankpin from the 2nd crank (flywheel side).
But actually in progress - look here (K750i):
(https://bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tfmicrosystems.de%2Fimages%2Fodeon8-balance-calc.jpg&hash=c2b1d2eab0c457f6a38ac30c6e3d65a2089c232e)
Greetings - Thomas
:o WOW!! :o
Hey Thomas,
we are still looking for a draftsman in our company ;D
Heiko
Hi Hiko (Remember, we are in the English section ;D )
some times ago my boss stated
"if you like to do some skilled engineering - just care about your onecylinder bike..."
...
and i did !
(My boss is 79 years old, an he knows what he is talking about ;) )
Thomas
(being hired as an engineer and workin´ as a web designer and draftsman....)
Hey Thomas!
My attempt at building a gutter with "proper" material did not work as well as the sample made out of a tin can. It is too thick (3+mm) and I cannot form it up around the headbolt to stop the oil from running off before it gets to the valve ???.
I was ready to go back to the tin can again but it is too ugly :-[ My next thought is this: :Frage:
Boring a small (1.5 mm) hole across the top of the rocker shaft support, from the valve side into the headbolt hole. On the valve side I will make the hole big enough to thread in a brass fitting. I can then attach a 5mm pipe to the fitting that will direct the oil exactly where I want it.
Do you think that I will weaken the support block by all this boring?
Garnet A(sking the Engineer
Hey Garnet !
Drilling holes in the mounting block will somewhat difficult - it might be hardened.
For a "more professional" solution i would do exacly what you describe.
The block will not be weakened too much as it is stressed mostly by pressure, not by tension.
Could you specify the location for the intended threaded pipe connection ?
(https://bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tfmicrosystems.de%2Fimages%2Fodeon8-karl-kopf-gutter.jpg&hash=067ada1f88a0632470832788e968d7caa1431917)
Best Regards
Thomas O(ilhead)
Zitat von: odeon8 am 27 November 2005, 16:40:18
Hi Hiko (Remember, we are in the English section ;D )
Okay Tom!
Hi Thomas,
Nice drawing! ;) Very close to my idea.
My thoughts are to be just above the lower of the two pipes that you drew. The hole will have to go across, above the top of the rocker shaft to the headbolt. Your lower pipe is next to the rocker shaft but I think that there is not enough material to thread a fitting into.
I may have time later today to try a small drill bit and see how hard the steel is.
Garnet D(rilling for oil)
I drilled a small test hole easily. The smallest brass fitting I have, will require too big of a hole :( so I may bore the outer part of the hole to match the OD (4.7mm) of the pipe. I will then solder or epoxy the pipe directly into the rocker support.
Garnet M(aking it up as I go) :poet:
Hi Garnet,
sounds good - gimme some pics !
(using the drill machine for the pump to show the splash scene in your head )
:)
Thomas
Hello guys, I've been following your interesting thread and was just wondering, if you lower the overall oil pressure by adding the pipe at the rocker, if, there will be enough pressure to squirt the oil into the oil slinger which is relied upon to keep the oil clean. The oil is fed into the slinger via a small hole in the front main bearing holder, isn't it?
Regards
Ben
Zitat von: Garnet Grylls am 29 November 2005, 07:31:54
I drilled a small test hole easily. The smallest brass fitting I have, will require too big of a hole :( so I may bore the outer part of the hole to match the OD (4.7mm) of the pipe. I will then solder or epoxy the pipe directly into the rocker support.
Garnet M(aking it up as I go) :poet:
Hi Ben,
you are right, of course.
BUT (trotzdem ;) ) we are talkin´ about tuned engines that have a reinforced oil pump.
Just look here (http://www.bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/index.php?topic=1079.msg7339#msg7339)
and here (http://www.bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/index.php?topic=1097.msg7578#msg7578)
Greetings
Tom
Hello Tom, Garnet,
Yes, I forgot about that. Although I still think that the "gutter" that you built is an easier solution to the problem.I like that, i will probably make one for my bike. I'm assuming that you cut a groove in the head bolt washer to allow the oil to flow, is that correct? I just think that with the gutter and washer one can adjust the flow of oil easier, by sacrificing a few washers until the correct size groove is cut.
Regards
Ben
Hello Ben,
Yes you are right that the gutter is a simpler method and a small grove or cut in the washer is needed to let the oil out. The gutter needs at least a 3 or 4mm lip around the headbolt to make the oil flow towards the valve. My first attempt with light bendable sheet metal worked but was embarrassingly ugly. I tried thicker 3mm metal with a groove cut into it. It looked much better but most oil ran uselessly over the side :kopfhau: and little made it to the valve.
With the pipe method I am working on I plan on using a 1.2mm drill bit for the final hole into the headbolt area. If this allows too much oil flow, I will pinch the pipe down to keep the flow from being too great.
Thomas:
I am sorry but no digital camera :-[ but I will try and borrow one.
Garnet A(nalog)
Hi Garnet, hi Ben,
this gutter was made 1999 and i tried to make it as simple as possible.
Look here:
(https://bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tfmicrosystems.de%2Fimages%2Fodeon8-gutter.jpg&hash=322d09d773f7b7b830a866ff2142e0404cdd7a06)
(https://bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tfmicrosystems.de%2Fimages%2Fodeon8-gutter1.jpg&hash=f0b4b92f587bd4d0ca741396b20ecd965f484977)
The red arrows shows the opposite position of the radial rim in the top washer.
The washer is mounted with the the rim downward to the gutter. The gutter is made
out of 0.5 mm sheet metal, the edges bend up a little to keep the oil inside
and bend down towards the top of the exhaust valve.
There is one disadvantage with this solution: While fastening the head screw
the washer/gutter needs to be kept in the right position - sometimes a little
try-and-error procedure to find the right position before the screw is tightened.
Besides: This is my
(https://bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tfmicrosystems.de%2Fimages%2Fodeon8-500-253x253.gif&hash=2e6630edaa317cf83336e59c930b840d7ddf1f70)
contribution - just startin´ :saufen:
Bye
Tom
@ Odeon:
:applaus:
:respekt:
Ab jetzt zähltst du zu den "Veteranen" ;D
Congratulations Thomas :dance:
I drilled and fitted the pipes tonight. I started with an 8mm deep hole with the same OD (4.7mm) as the pipe. Then drilled most of the rest with a 1.6mm bit and broke through into the headbolt area with a 1.2mm hole.
The exhaust was first with the hole above the rocker axle, but the pipe looked close to the valve cover. After final bending and cutting there was lots of room.
The intake I drilled below the rocker axle for extra clearance and fitted the tube. I then got out the drill.
The exhaust had a nice steady drip drip drip ;D. The intake was gushing out at least 4 or 5 times as much :o. Evan after pressing the end of the pipe flat there is more oil coming out of the intake than the exhaust.
It must be that there is more pressure under the rocker axle than over it. There was enough to push the pipe out of the axle housing. I will try pressing the end even more closed.
I have directed the end of the pipes within a couple of mm of the rocker/valve contact area. I will solder the pipes in place and then test them in the oven at around 300F or 160C to make sure they hold.
I'll try and borrow a camera and get some pictures. It is a very nice looking solution.
Garnet G(ushing with oil)
Pictures of that modification would be interesting/nice
So what's the above emblem/contribution about? is it a club logo?
Ben
Hi,
and here are the pic´s Garnet wanted me to put into this thread...
Heiko
Heiko:
Thank you for posting those pictures! :applaus:
Hello to All,
The first and third pictures show the intake rocker from the top and side. The second shows the exhaust. Note how the intake pipe was fitted below the rocker axle and the exhaust is above. This resulted in much higher volume of oil on the intake and I had to pinch the end of the pipe almost completely closed.
If I where to do it again I would do both from above (like the exhaust) as the flow is enough and there is more room to bend the pipe at the right spot. I may try bending the intake pipe a bit more to get the oil closer to the rocker valve contact.
With the drill running, a picture did not show the oil volume as it is poured so close to the valve.
After running the engine and removing the covers, everything is covered with oil which was not happening before.
Garnet A(nalog)
Hi Garnet,
looks great - so much oil in your head. I hope the tinned pipe connection can stand the
heat and vibrations of the engine....
My balancing project has not much progress yet - this is the "silent time" before cristmas ;)
So long - Tom