R2 setting ignition
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Autor Thema: R2 setting ignition  (Gelesen 1111 mal)

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dequincey

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R2 setting ignition
« am: 23 Mai 2017, 17:33:52 »

Hi, so this is the question, i would love you to consider that i am alone and lost and i need your help, i can not find anything in the manuals, and there are not YouTube tutorials whatsoever

i will try to do this for the first time, i am used to 6cylinder and mechanical advance, but noone is perfect, this is a different world, new to me

i would like to set static ignition timing and i think that i do not understand the system, and i do not know where to look for flywheel marks

in my understanding to set static ignition point i need to place the piston in a certain position BTDC (before top dead center), this value is usually given in deg. of rotation,

some machines have a mark in the flywheel, like a "Z" or a "Ball", or,...

as far as i have tried, no mark can be found in my flywheel, so what to do ?



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R2 setting ignition
« am: 23 Mai 2017, 17:33:52 »

dequincey

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #1 am: 23 Mai 2017, 17:38:06 »

a friend, so kind to link me the manual, has responded:




"Hola,

I am no R2 expert at all, but if you check p.52 of this document
http://cms.bmw-einzylinder.de/images/PDFs/unterlagen/handbuch/R2_R3_R4_handbuch_1936.pdf
there's a diagram. If I interpret correctly, the ignition is set at top dead centre (=O.T.) and the rest is done manually during drive by changing the lever settings (there is some explanation along the document, how to do this, but I am sure you knew that anyway).
Point gap setting is the usual 0.4 mm.
Do you have any marks on your flywheel (OT, S, F....?)
Cheers
D."

thank you D,

so i have checked the diagram and found this:  (see picture)

what does Frühzündung means ? 9,5 is it mm ? for what ?

MFG





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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #2 am: 23 Mai 2017, 17:40:14 »

You should be able to determine TDC from the piston position.

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Dappsull

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #3 am: 23 Mai 2017, 17:50:34 »

Probably first step: remove spark plug and put some pin inside the hole - maybe a pencil? - and move the piston with the kick starter. Then try to determine as good as possible, it reached its top position, that's when the piston is at DTC.
The diagram shows that the range of early ignition timing covers about 9mm before DTC, so if you manage to adjust the ignition manually with the lever (handle bar left side?) you can check the behaviour and with a bit of fiddling align piston position and ignition timing. Still quite some freedom due to manual agjust.
Sorry difficult to explain without paper and pencil ;^). Due you need any translation of the diagram?

Cheers
D.
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #4 am: 24 Mai 2017, 01:01:12 »

Hello dequincey,
"Frühzündung" means ignition advance. This is also what Dappsull meant when he wrote "early ignition timing".
I'm absolutely not familiar with R2 particularly, but if the manual points out the maximum advance angle, or piston position in mm before TDC, ( 9 mm ?)
then you should set up your ignition-lever and assembly, that it is not possible by no means, to advance timing any more than that.
This will avoid engine damage, e.g. if you are distracted and adjust the lever to far / timing to much advanced.
First of all, you should get or make yourselves a timing-disc. This can be printed out and glued to an old CD for example.
Fix this CD on your crankshaft front end (if possible on an R2). Also fix a stiff wire somewhere in that area and bend, to have a fixed pointer/indicator.
Now you need a fixed piston-stop. I'd take an old sparkplug, remove the ceramic isolator with a chisel or so, then punch an appropriate wooden dowel through.
Wide enough, that it protrudes inside the head. Not important, how far, but far enogh to stop the piston.
Now turn the crank carefully in one direction until the piston stops. Make a mark at your wire-indicator.
Now turn the crank the opposite direction, until it stops again. Set the second mark on your disc.
Now make a third mark on your disk exactly in the middle between the two other marks, in that sector, where you can't turn the crank due to piston stopper.
This is your exact TDC ! Now you can mark your flywheel through the inspection hole with a centerpunch. So you can find your TDC much easier in the future.
You could to the same for the maximum advance. Not with a piston stop, but by measuring the distance from TDC like given in the manual.
This will make things easier and avoids missreadings and mixing up things for the future.
Hope this helps.
I had a look into your link and it says for "Frühzündung" (ignition advance)   "rd9,5mm",  which I would translate to "roundabout 9,5 mm" = circa.
The manual also recommends, (Page 17 far below and page 18 top) :
"Ignition lever has always to be set appropriate for engine revs. On low revs give only half advance-range.
Full advance only for high revs and low load, e.g. on level roads, or in low gears.
A clanking or clacking noise from the cylinder is often the consequence of too much advance."
(this is translated with my own words)
Saludos
Sascha
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dequincey

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #5 am: 24 Mai 2017, 08:53:13 »

Liebe Sascha, thank you,

you have posted a lot of information, thank you,

.... and i came back with more doubts, i will go step by step

you said:

"Frühzündung" means ignition advance. This is also what Dappsull meant when he wrote "early ignition timing".
I'm absolutely not familiar with R2 particularly, but if the manual points out the maximum advance angle, or piston position in mm before TDC, ( 9 mm ?)
then you should set up your ignition-lever and assembly, that it is not possible by no means, to advance timing any more than that."


i am not sure of what you said...and i may not agree (please forgive me)

here the point is that the ignition module has two positions, i will say: (PLEASE SEE THE PICTURE "min max advance" ATTACHED)

1- STATIC TIMING FOR IDDLE: in this position of the ignition module you have no additional manual advance, this should be the mínimum advance for iddle conditions - (I NEED TO KNOW WHICH IS THE MINIMUM ADVANCE, IS IT 9,5mm BEFORE TDC ?)(IS IT TDC ?)

2- TIMING FOR HIGHER RPMS: in this position of the ignition module you have an additional ammount of manual advance that you can play with the left handle bar lever. - (IS THE MAXIMUM ADVANCE 9,5mm ?)

to my understanding when i set the timing for iddle i must put the ignition module in position 1,

position 1 can be regulated by means of the screw and nut stop (SEE PICTURE NAMED "iddle set")

SO HERE IS MY QUESTION:

1- is the previous explanation that i have just made correct ?
2- if so, which is the mínimum advance for IDDLE conditions ? is it "0" Before TDC ? is it 9,5mm BTDC ?
3- and how much is the máximum advance that i can get ? is it 9,5mm BTDC ?

vielen danke

MFG
« Letzte Änderung: 24 Mai 2017, 09:03:28 von dequincey »
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #6 am: 24 Mai 2017, 09:06:11 »

Probably first step: remove spark plug and put some pin inside the hole - maybe a pencil? - and move the piston with the kick starter. Then try to determine as good as possible, it reached its top position, that's when the piston is at DTC.
The diagram shows that the range of early ignition timing covers about 9mm before DTC, so if you manage to adjust the ignition manually with the lever (handle bar left side?) you can check the behaviour and with a bit of fiddling align piston position and ignition timing. Still quite some freedom due to manual agjust.
Sorry difficult to explain without paper and pencil ;^). Due you need any translation of the diagram?

Cheers
D.

Thank you dappsull,

i get your tip to check for DTC, that is good, i get the idea of fiddling with ignition, i only need to understand if 9,5 mm is the mínimum advance or the máximum advance

hope that i am explaining myself well, please check the previous post too

MFG
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #7 am: 24 Mai 2017, 09:17:48 »

Hola,

I hope I didn't confuse more than I wanted to ;^). I went a bit more into the owner's manual and found some more input>
1. What I thought was a lever for timing control is actually a rotating handle (pic 1)
2. I added translations to the timing diagram (pic 2).

W.r.t. the question to Sacha: my guess is that if you set the ignition mnually to maximum 'early' it must not fire before 9.5 mm before TDC, the idle just has to follow suit.
If I do my arccos correctly (no guarantee) the 9.5 mm correspond to 43 deg, which sounds like an awful lot to me.
Cheers
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #8 am: 24 Mai 2017, 09:38:12 »

Buenos dias dequincey,
1. yes
2. determined by the slotted holes in the baseplate of ignition module or bowden cable free length.
3. yes.

9,5mm piston travel before TDC is your maximum advance.
In general it is more important to focus on the maximum advance with the brass nut and screw for the bowden cable, as shown in "idle set.jpg" in the left upper
corner. (as you said )
It does not matter much, if the static advance (ignition module turned clockwise until mechanical stop) is a few degrees before TDC, or in, or even after TDC.
The worst that can happen is, that she "sneezes" a bit during start  :D
The above said assumes, that the R2-engine is running clockwise, if watched from front.
Saludos el Münster,
Sascha
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #9 am: 24 Mai 2017, 09:44:37 »

Though Sascha said the same already...
2- TIMING FOR HIGHER RPMS: in this position of the ignition module you have an additional ammount of manual advance that you can play with the left handle bar lever. - (IS THE MAXIMUM ADVANCE 9,5mm ?)
Yes.
"Frühzündung"(F) means "maximnum advance".
It is the critical value.

"Minimum advance" is usually called "Spätzündung"(S).
As it is'nt critical, it's usually not defined for ignitions with manuall advance.
-> just justate the left handle to perfekt idle...
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #10 am: 24 Mai 2017, 10:11:47 »

thank you, vielen danke for all your answers, and your patience  :)

@4Taktix, yes the engine runs clockwise (well pointed out)

so if the critical issue is to limit the máximum advance no more than 9,5mm, i should proceed the other way than i thought, lets see

a) i will position the piston at 9,5mm BTDC,
b) then i will put the ignition module for position number 2 (see picture) as to the máximum advance and
c) I will block the screw and nut of the bowden cable

this way i make sure that there is NO WAY of getting more advance in the iginition NEVER

by using the left handlebar lever anything of less advance is aceptable trying to get a smooth iddle

hope this is correct

MFG


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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #11 am: 24 Mai 2017, 10:22:53 »

you got it exactly !  ;)
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #12 am: 24 Mai 2017, 15:01:21 »

you got it exactly !  ;)

thank you
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #13 am: 24 Mai 2017, 15:08:01 »

inspection holes,

please help me identify

my R2 has three openings in the engine block

this includes:

1- a front hole covered by a rubber cap: see photo
2- a rear hole right side sovered by a aluminium plate with two screws
3- a rear hole left side up, covered by a plastic black with two screws

anyone can explain the use of these holes ?

MFG
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #14 am: 24 Mai 2017, 15:40:57 »

1: for loosening the screws of the clutch
2. the same
3. for the clutch lever...Fixing new cable or something else

as I know....but the Drivers Hand Book should also explain that
« Letzte Änderung: 24 Mai 2017, 15:44:02 von rolf »
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #15 am: 24 Mai 2017, 16:19:26 »

1: for loosening the screws of the clutch
2. the same
3. for the clutch lever...Fixing new cable or something else

as I know....but the Drivers Hand Book should also explain that

thank you,
no clear explanation in the hand book, i agree with number 3, it can be guessed by a section drawing in the handbook

i am trying to figure out which one of these holes should let me see OT marks and so on

i checked hole number 2 and the only mark i can see is sort of an "x" not very clear, but sort of
but nothing else

that was i was asking

p.s. is there any R2 owner in this fórum ?

MFG


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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #16 am: 24 Mai 2017, 16:53:17 »

There is no OT mark....but you can produce one....search the ot....the mark it at the "Schwungscheibe" (also a mark for "F")...it is easier for you in the future
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #17 am: 27 Mai 2017, 07:18:53 »

thank you all,
i am making a tool to check when the piston is 9,5mm before OT
i will report here
regards
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #18 am: 27 Mai 2017, 13:06:18 »

This is my favorite method for finding TDC.
http://draftcycleworks.blogspot.de/2013/05/finding-true-tdc.html

For installing the degree wheel i removed the front cover on the engine where the ignition box is.
I put the degree wheel on the gear of the crankshaft.
Made a mark /white dot for TDC on the fly wheel centered in the hole with rubber plug.

Tino
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #19 am: 27 Mai 2017, 13:51:53 »

My R26 TDC check with a DTI.

https://goo.gl/photos/zg3g9FC6QpzBkxup9

There are DTIs that will fit through the spark plug hole.

Brian

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #20 am: 27 Mai 2017, 23:27:34 »

thank you all,
i am making a tool to check when the piston is 9,5mm before OT
i will report here
regards

well i am still in the process, but first step done, emptying an old spark plug

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #21 am: 27 Mai 2017, 23:30:43 »

This is my favorite method for finding TDC.
http://draftcycleworks.blogspot.de/2013/05/finding-true-tdc.html

For installing the degree wheel i removed the front cover on the engine where the ignition box is.
I put the degree wheel on the gear of the crankshaft.
Made a mark /white dot for TDC on the fly wheel centered in the hole with rubber plug.

Tino

dear Tino
seems very interesting, i should try it, unfortunately the advance setting in the R2 is in mm and not in DEG
i think i will go the spark plug way, i saw a device and i am trying to copy it

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #22 am: 27 Mai 2017, 23:37:33 »

well today a bit of progress, i have set the points´ gap

i have checked that if i set the gap in the No advance position, gap increases when i move the lever to Advance position

so my settings resulted like this:

Lever in NO-Advance: gap at 0,30mm  (set by means of feeler gauge)
moving the Lever to the Advance position: gap resulted 0,5mm

gap is whithin limits according to the manual that specifies 0,4 to 0,6

see photos
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #23 am: 27 Mai 2017, 23:41:07 »

new condenser and new points

fiddling with multimeter, checked continuity and voltaje, found some curiosities
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #24 am: 27 Mai 2017, 23:47:02 »

now it comes the odd discovery:

bought a red light to check ignition point
connected it following the red=positive cable connected to the condensator terminal, nothing happenened, circuit closed and no light

then checked with voltmeter and saw 6 volts (in fact -6 volts)

changed the cables of the light, so red to ground and black to condenser, e voila, the light was there !

Important question: WHAT IS THE EFFECT of connecting the polarity of the battery just reverse, so positive is ground and cables are bringing negative ???

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #25 am: 28 Mai 2017, 07:02:12 »

Very strange (and probably very wrong) indeed. This would be the first BMW with positve voltage to chassis, it also contradicts all the diagrams seen so far.
I should also assume that the generator provides a positive voltage referred to chassis, when the motor is running (forward, that is ;^).
How come, your positive battery connector is wired to chassis anyway?

Cheers
D.
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #26 am: 28 Mai 2017, 07:06:07 »

Oh, and what is a 'red light' - some LED device?
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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #27 am: 28 Mai 2017, 08:35:42 »

dear Tino
seems very interesting, i should try it, unfortunately the advance setting in the R2 is in mm and not in DEG
i think i will go the spark plug way, i saw a device and i am trying to copy it

Thats easy.
Stroke is 64mm.
Length of rod is 125mm.
So 9.5mm before TDC are 40.715°.

Tino
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Gott fragte die Steine: "Wollt ihr Starrrahmenfahrer werden?"
Verängstigt antworteten die Steine:"Nein,dafür sind wir nicht hart genug."

mekgyver

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #28 am: 28 Mai 2017, 09:33:52 »

Moin Tino,
interessant !
Wie hast Du das gerechnet ?
Gruß mek  :kaffee:
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Ich bedanke mich bei all denen, die zum Thema nichts beizutragen hatten und geschwiegen haben.

Tino

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Re: R2 setting ignition
« Antwort #29 am: 28 Mai 2017, 20:00:21 »

Schritt 1: Satz des Pythagoras fürs Pleueldreieck
Schritt 2: Sinusfunktion füs Hubdreieck

Oder einfach mal aufmalen, dann versteht mans vielleicht besser welche Funktion wo anzuwenden ist.

Gruß Tino
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Gott fragte die Steine: "Wollt ihr Starrrahmenfahrer werden?"
Verängstigt antworteten die Steine:"Nein,dafür sind wir nicht hart genug."

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