Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
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Autor Thema: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?  (Gelesen 2520 mal)

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Kurt in S.A.

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Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« am: 19 Januar 2017, 20:37:05 »

My original saddle didn't last but 65 years!  That's pretty poor performance!!  ;D

I bought a replacement saddle and understand there are "fun times" getting the new one installed.  I've seen a few approaches, but once I removed the saddle from the frame on the bike, I wasn't expecting this.  I was prepared to build a frame around the seat so I can pull the front and back apart.

How do I proceed?  Probably the best thing to do is cut the old one off?  It's torn on the top side...the reason for the replacement.  I was expecting a 3-point attachment, two in the back and one in the front.  But there are two attachments up front.

It looks like I also have to cut holes in the new saddle where the interior frame bolts come out at the rear...I guess just do that by eye?

Thanks...Kurt
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Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« am: 19 Januar 2017, 20:37:05 »

Taz

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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #1 am: 19 Januar 2017, 21:13:25 »

Hello Kurt.

Just cut it off the frame....then the frame can be taken apart (massive round material in front, the two mounting flaps can be turned to allow the new saddle to be mounted) and a tube part at the back, the rubber saddle should have two very thin sections at the appropriate locations that you can cut with a sharp knife (or a small pair of scissors)...

The rest is muscle or makjng use of an old car jack....see tips and tricks....

All the best, Taz
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #2 am: 19 Januar 2017, 21:50:02 »

Taz -

Thanks, after some poking around I found the tips and tricks.  I had seen that before...I'll have to think about modifying what I was going to do.

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #3 am: 19 Januar 2017, 22:15:02 »

Hello Kurt.

Don't mention it...in case you woud need further input (e.g. detailed pictures or translation service) please don't hesitate to let me know... pity that you're across the Atlantic....if you would be somewhere around here I would offer to take care of this task for you as well...but postage might be a bit too expensive...

Kind regards, Taz
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #4 am: 20 Januar 2017, 00:01:58 »

As I look at this, I'm a bit confused.  I understand that the internal structure comes in two pieces.  Putting the rear curve in place doesn't seem like a big deal, once the holes are cut in the underside of the saddle.  But the forward piece leaves me scratching my head.  The nose of that forward piece must be inside the rubber, but the arms of it are exposed.  How is the forward piece positioned so that the pulling can begin?   ???

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #5 am: 20 Januar 2017, 09:35:24 »

I will post a few pics later on....
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #6 am: 20 Januar 2017, 20:02:07 »

Hi Kurt,

I don't know how far you do understand German. 10 or 15 years back I have described the procedure here:

http://www.herculesig.de/frame.html

Forum / Tips und Technik / Fahrwerk (Gabel, Stoßdämpfer) / Pagusa Satteldecken aufziehen

I am not sure, if your single seat is of the same design. Just cut the old rubber away and see how it looks inside. Most probably you'll find two pieces of steel inside that keep the rubber tensioned (finally assembled). Photos of your saddle design (inside) will definitely help. Then I can give you more advice. Fact is that this is a purely mechanical exercise. Pls stay away from heating the rubber or any other funny tips. You'll just have to find a way to tension it to connect the two steel parts. Manually you're not going to make it. You need some force. A little bit of liquid soap or something similar will be helpful to bring it into the final position. Afterwards rinse to get rid of the soap. Again, some photos. Then I can think about how to put it together. The steel parts might connect differently.

regards
Tom

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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #7 am: 20 Januar 2017, 20:29:21 »

Tom -

I've seen that website before...I've been using each of these sites to formulate a plan.  I plan on building a 2x4 box to which I'll attach various hold downs to begin the stretching process.  I like the idea of a scissors jack...I will use that from my Toyota.  I just want to be sure it doesn't go "sproing" on me and fly across the room!!  I will cut away the old saddle...I'm just a little cautious about doing it, but I know it has to be done.  I can then post some pictures.

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #8 am: 20 Januar 2017, 21:25:54 »

Here's pictures of the internal frame, together and separated.  The part I've circled in red needs to be on the outside the way I figure it...at least that's how it came off the bike.  But the two straps appear to be quite fixed.  So, I don't see how I can insert this part into the rubber saddle and still have these straps on the outside.

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #9 am: 20 Januar 2017, 22:54:26 »

Hello Kurt.

Sorry....doc appointments and not enough fun at the moment... you are on the right track, these straps (one will be enough, btw) have to be turned.....see picture. If both seem fixed it's down to too much paint or rust and age....apply oil and maybe a rubber mallet....I have come across similar frames, in the end I always found that at least one of the straps could be convinced to move....

when inserting the front part of the frame into the rubber seat (I prefer to insert this part after the back bow) it pays to use some liquid soap or rubber care spray (like "armor all", don't know what the stuff is called in the US as Germans tend to have the funniest ideas of how to adapt English names of things...imagine a "handy"-local name for a cell phone...or a "body bag" for a certain type of backpack) ... without some lubrification it's almost impossible to get that thing into position...a common lament  ;)

Good luck, Taz
« Letzte Änderung: 20 Januar 2017, 23:13:19 von Taz »
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #10 am: 20 Januar 2017, 23:08:15 »

Taz -

Thanks...I haven't tried that hard to move the straps, but will look at them closer.  We're getting a bit of sun these days, so I'm hoping to take advantage of that and do the work of stretching with the sun beating down on the seat.

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #11 am: 20 Januar 2017, 23:18:25 »

Hello Kurt.

Having the rubber heated up by the sun won't do the trick, I am afraid. The original howto mentions boiling water (and carefully avoids hinting to blistered hands)....a few ideas of how to do this without major burns are found here: http://bmw-einzylinder.de/forum/index.php?topic=8379.0 ... the text is German, but the pictures in the second half of the article speak for themselves....

When inserting the front part of the frame the trick is to bend the top front part of the rubber in form to align with the frame...I usually insert it with the bow pointing in the wrong direction and the flip it once it's inside the rubber....again...lubricate...

Good luck, Taz
« Letzte Änderung: 20 Januar 2017, 23:29:59 von Taz »
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Apart from that....been to:

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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #12 am: 21 Januar 2017, 00:24:47 »

OK, those pictures help.  I've been able to move the straps on my frame, but am letting them soak in penetrant for a bit.

I don't see how the boiling water is going to have a sustained effect.  It would seem that by the time it's removed from the water and the metal parts are inserted, along with installing it in whatever frame for stretching, the whole affair is going to substantially cool down.   ???

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #13 am: 21 Januar 2017, 01:01:00 »

Hi Kurt.

Precisely my point re. the hot water .... I think that the idea with the hot water would be that this allows the rubber seat to be fully mounted without the aid of any mechanical devices.... whenever I replaced a rubber saddle I completely skipped the heating process and went straight for the mechanical part....I am using an old VW beetle's jack with some weld-ons as sbown in the last four pics of the article mentioned above....it took a kind of evolutionary process to find the optimal setup, but now replacing a seat rubber is usually done in less than fifteen minutes.....

Kind regards, Taz
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Apart from that....been to:

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Alba "Isle of Skye" (2013)
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #14 am: 21 Januar 2017, 22:38:59 »

I thought I'd at least try and get the hardware inside the saddle.  I can't seem to get any farther than this.  I think I may have pulled a muscle in my back!   :P

Not sure I can get there....

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #15 am: 21 Januar 2017, 23:14:57 »

Hello Kurt.

You're almost there.... lubricating and bending the saddle rubber nose in form to fit the frame should do the trick....if only the Atlantic wouldn't be so wide I come over and give you a hand....

I keep mt fjngers crossed....all the best, Taz
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #16 am: 21 Januar 2017, 23:37:32 »

Taz -

I actually thought about that...I noticed the curve on the old saddle.  I've tired myself out, so I guess I'll regroup maybe tomorrow.  I don't have the stamina I used to!   ;)

Wish me luck!  Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #17 am: 22 Januar 2017, 10:25:57 »

I did this about 3 years ago.
Fitted the 2 frames inside the rubber cover. Have to make holes for the 2 rear fittings and one at the for the pivot.
I bolted a steel /wooden bar across the rear 2 studs, and piece of steel to the pivot. That was to clamp in the vice.
Using an old car jack, standing on the vice, I used it to push up the curved part. It went far enough to clip in the 2 parts. Place the unit on the floor, stamp with foot and clicked into place. Have set it up, it took about 5 minutes to fit.
I did warm the rubber in hot water, and apply washing up liquid inside to help it slip.
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #18 am: 22 Januar 2017, 11:30:34 »

This is one of the jobs I have to do this year for Lottie. I bought the saddle top around 3 years ago but never fitted it.
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #19 am: 22 Januar 2017, 12:02:43 »

Hello Will.

Depending on how urgent this task is...you can send the parts to me or you can bring these to the Edersee....if I know about kne or more of these jobs I will bring my equipment with me and assemble the seats then...

Kind regards, Taz
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Apart from that....been to:

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Alba "Isle of Skye" (2013)
Austria Großglocknerhochalpenstrasse (2012)
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #20 am: 22 Januar 2017, 14:06:23 »

Hello Will.

Depending on how urgent this task is...you can send the parts to me or you can bring these to the Edersee....if I know about kne or more of these jobs I will bring my equipment with me and assemble the seats then...

Kind regards, Taz
Hi Ute,
Many thanks for your kind offer. If I haven't fitted the new cover by the 1st June I will let you know and bring the seat to the Lake.
Kind regards.
Bill.
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #21 am: 24 Januar 2017, 21:21:01 »

I guess it can't be done on this side of the pond.  :(  I'm sure there's some kind of special order, orientation, holding of the teeth, that I'm not seeing.  I'm close to sending it back for credit on a saddle with frame already installed.  Vech at Benchmark Works doesn't do the installation...they just sell saddles ready to bolt on.  I do have one call out to someone who might be able to give me some hints.

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #22 am: 24 Januar 2017, 21:29:19 »

Hello Kurt.

sad to hear this...if it weren't for the comparatively high weight I'd offer you to send me the parts and I would assemble iy for you....if you are willing to spend these bucks my offer's valid.

All the best, Taz
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #23 am: 24 Januar 2017, 22:31:49 »

Taz -

I'm still on step one...getting the two parts of the frame inside the rubber saddle.  I'm wearing my hands raw trying to slip things in.  I was close, but the orientation of the front frame plus the two tabs are presenting what I think multiple problems and I just can't get the front hoop to slide into place.  This is really wearing me out.

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #24 am: 24 Januar 2017, 23:45:44 »

Hello Kurt.

Ok...I will have to charge my cell before I can have a go at creating a series of pictures for this task....I will post it later on..stay tuned.

kind regards, Taz
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Apart from that....been to:

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Alba "Isle of Skye" (2013)
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #25 am: 25 Januar 2017, 01:39:04 »

Cool!  I will get my popcorn ready!   ;)

Kurt
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #26 am: 25 Januar 2017, 14:54:43 »

I talked to a guy here in Michigan.  He doesn't understand why I'm having so much trouble.  I'll share with him a picture of two of where I'm at.  But in the discussion, I had additional thoughts that might help me.  As I said, I'm first trying to get the frame inside the rubber saddle.

As for connection the two frames, he described a very simple process which doesn't involve much stretching as I've read about.  Basically, it involves using a steel angle iron to screw to the rear attach bolts.  This angle iron is then secured to a vise with the top of the saddle facing up.  Then grabbing the nose of the saddle, the rubber is bent up to near 90 degrees with the two ends of the front frame being fed into the rear frame.  Then with some effort, the nose is lowered while feeding the front frame further into the rear frame.

A key aspect of this is that the male ends of the front frame need to be chamfered so that it will more easily start into the female end of the rear frame.  That seems critical given the angle that the front frame is initially bent to...having the chamfer lets it work into the hole on the rear frame.

Kurt
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Taz

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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #27 am: 25 Januar 2017, 16:50:19 »

Hello Kurt.

Re the insertion of the front part of the frame I will have another, hopefully more successful go tonight... yesterday evening my back did hurt too badly for doing this....sorry.

Kind regards, Taz
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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #28 am: 26 Januar 2017, 02:10:34 »

Hello Kurt.

Now...at last...how to with a few more and hopefully clarifying pictures.

Note up front...I use the Armor All Original Protectant for lubricating the rubber wherever any of the frame parts needs to be inserted, but generally all rubber-friendly lubricants may be used...without any of these the task will fail almost 100%.

Pic 1 shows the frame put together so you can get a good idea of the orientation of the two parts.

Pic 2 first insert the back (female) part of the frame...pretty self-explaining

Pic 3 Turn the flaps of the front frame part out and lay the front (male) part of the frame on the seat rubber (for orientation)

Pic 4 Start sliding in the front frame part into the seat rubber

Pic 5 continue ...

Pic 6 Front frame part inserted completely


... to be continued
« Letzte Änderung: 26 Januar 2017, 02:21:29 von Taz »
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Apart from that....been to:

Cymru "Radnor Revivals" (2016)
Alba "Isle of Skye" (2013)
Austria Großglocknerhochalpenstrasse (2012)
Alba "Spittal of Glenshee" (2011)

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Re: Pagusa Saddle Installation R25/2 - Now What?
« Antwort #29 am: 26 Januar 2017, 02:20:38 »

Pic 7 Now flip the front part of the frame ... again, lubrication is the key...and it helps tremedously if the front part of the seat rubber (top in the pictures) is bent to accomodate the bow of the frame. At least this part of the job is done on the floor on an old carpet ... that way you can fix te rubber by putting a kne of foot on the back (lower) pasrt of the seat rubber and use both hands to flip the front part over.

Pic 8 done...turn the flaps again and  ...

...connect the two frame parts...either with any of the methods/tools described in the tips section or via the method the Michigan guy told you....sounds like a valid way of doing it, but the new rubber seats tend to be pretty strong so it may require some power nonetheless.

good luck, I keep my fingers crossed, Taz
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I have never faked a sarcasm...


Apart from that....been to:

Cymru "Radnor Revivals" (2016)
Alba "Isle of Skye" (2013)
Austria Großglocknerhochalpenstrasse (2012)
Alba "Spittal of Glenshee" (2011)

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